How to Grow Community with Kasi Muñoz
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
projects, people, community, building, farm, farmer, landscape architecture, design, food, fun, placemaking, landscape
SPEAKERS
Kasi Muñoz, Farmer D
Farmer D:
All right, I'm so excited. This is the first interview and to kick off season two of the citizen farmers podcast. And, you know, I figured no better person to start the season with then my dear friend, and coworker and colleague and crime at farmer D, Kasi Muñoz. Hey, Kasi , how you doing?
Kasi:
I'm good. How are you?
Farmer D :
I'm doing great! We're coming off of a pretty fun day yesterday where Kasi drove from San Diego, her hometown, to visit her family in El Paso. And we had two big presentations for a couple of clients yesterday that Kasi managed to pull off, from the road. That was pretty, pretty impressive, I gotta say.And thankfully, you made it safe, it sounds like. Where are you right now, Kasi?
Kasi:
I'm in El Paso, in my parents kitchen.
Farmer D :
Nice. So I just want to kind of set some frame for this interview, and for this season, because it's our first interview, you know, you guys, listeners out there have had to put up with just listening to me talk for the whole first season. Thanks for doing that. You know, the goal of that was really just to frame the whole Citizen Farmer's philosophy, right? The lifecycle of the garden, and, you know, share kind of the philosophy and some of the principles and practices that farmer D, myself, and the whole kind of concept of the citizen farmers movement is all about. And this season, I'm going to be interviewing inspirational people, citizen farmers, who are kind of at the forefront of this movement, and kind of the intersection of agriculture, you know, regenerative farming, urban AG, community farming, farmers, activists, you know, planners, developers, designers, educators, you know, nonprofits, social entrepreneurs, just people really at the at the frontline of food systems, food security, building vibrant, resilient communities, working in this field, no pun intended, and really to learn from them. To get inspired from their work and what drives them, to hear about what they're doing. And, you know, connect with their work, and, you know, learn and take the lessons we learned from the people we interview along the way, and incorporate it into our own work and hopefully, inspire more action out of us, as citizen farmers, the listeners to get more engaged to get more involved in our food system in our political system. And addressing the core issues right now that we as a society face, you know, hunger, homelessness, health, climate change, local food; there's so many important issues that come into our work. And so I thought it was appropriate to start with Kasi because Kasi and I work together every day at farmer D, we are, you know, really tackling these kinds of challenges and projects across the country. And, you know, just to share, I met Kasi for the first time when I was running the farm at Coastal Roots, in Encinitas, and we were embarking on a design process for a children's farm. We have a lot of programs for youth at the farm of coastal routes. And, you know, it's always challenging when you're running a working farm, to have kids come in and you know, learn and engage in the farm when it's also like, you know, there's tractors and there's ATVs, and there's people running around with tools and implements and trailers, and it's awesome, but it's challenging. And so what we thought about was, how can we create a safe space where kids can just kind of like, be free to explore and basically create kind of a miniature farm that was scaled and designed to really accommodate youth engaging in all the processes: composting, digging, sowing seeds, you know, greenhouse, potting up, transplanting nourishing plants, growing food, harvesting food, making things with that food, sharing that food, learning about the different crops, and you know, seeing the whole cycle. And so I hired a firm at the time called Rooted in Place, where Kasi was, what was your role there, Kasi?
Kasi:
Sort of another partner in crime or a colleague in crime there: designer, landscape designer, pretty much ran the business. Similar role with you, which is like very attractive to me. It's like I love that I have the landscape architecture background, but to me kind of being a part of a small business and helping it to grow and sort of find its ways is so attractive and fun, and you get your hands in a lot of different roles, and then also designing and working with clients.
Farmer D :
I was definitely impressed and really enjoyed working with you. And with Elisa, and you guys came in and really, the goal was to get everybody on our team, to get their input and ideas, and you led the workshops that kind of gathered input from all of our staff at the time and other collaborators. And that's something that you trained in, right?
Kasi:
Yeah, so I think actually collaborated with Elisa on those, and we both have the same training, it's from the pomegranate center in Seattle. And it's a facilitator training, and Malenko, who's the head of that calls it, you know, becoming fierce facilitators. And it's a really nice structured approach to be able to do, you know, community input sessions and workshops, where it's just well structured, there's some ground rules, and at the same time it's all very simple. And it's all about just really wording things concisely, making sure everyone has a fair airtime. And that, you know, when you're not speaking, you're actively engaging in listening, and it sets a nice, you know, ground plain for everyone being able to participate in that process, you know, developing the concept of a project, which I really love.
Farmer D :
Yeah, I could see that passion in you, when we were working with you and it was really productive. And you came up with a great design, it was really exciting to work with you. And then at that time, I was running the farm, I kind of put my consulting a little bit on the side burner when I was building out Coastal Roots farm, and then at some point, not too long after we work together, I brought the consulting in-house and started working again on projects around the country. And I put out a job description at the time, and it was for a program and design manager for Farmer D, and you applied. What made you want to apply for that job?
Kasi:
I have no idea.
Farmer D :
You're still asking yourself the same question.
Kasi:
Yeah, I don't know. It's interesting, because actually, for about a year and a half, I kind of went on out on my own to figure out you know, next steps. I love working with Elisa, but I really was interested in working alongside someone a little bit more entrepreneurial focused, which as everyone can tell, Daron is very much that. So I had gone out on my own for about a year and a half before that posting came out. I had a little tiny plant shop in city heights and was engaging with high school students there and was just kind of, you know, figuring things out. And was still really much involved in placemaking projects locally, running those in a very similar fashion that we did the engagement process for the Coastal Roots garden, and I saw your posts, and then my friend, Elle Mari, who runs the UCSD Center for Community Health Programs, and she's a great colleague of mine and a friend of mine, passed it along to me and so I was like, all right, like, I feel like it's come my way a couple times, I found very interesting. I'm just gonna go see what it's all about, you know, like, I wasn't really ready to like commit. And I think we probably went through that for the first year was like, are we committing? Are we not?
Farmer D :
We had a long dating period.
Kasi:
Yeah, we did. Yeah, and I was curious, and I, you know, some of my background was in urban agriculture and, and just really getting... providing more access is kind of is, is also the root cause of a lot of what I'm inspired by is just, you know, how can more people have access, you know, to food to nature to the process to participating, I think a lot of it is just they don't know how or they don't know where to get involved. And so anyways, you working in, you know, bigger scale was very intriguing. And I felt like, that was a really good way to access more communities and kind of bring awareness and connect and bring my passion towards, you know, to more communities. And work at a larger scale, which at the time was really inspiring. I think I was working at a little bit more local level. And it might like five year plan just trying to figure out how I wanted to grow as a human being and then in a career and then what that meant in impact and... and that's why I came in met you at lofty and we had a long conversation. You made me late to my next meeting.
Farmer D :
I remember that conversation, it was a great conversation. And, you know, it's interesting, there's so many directions I want to go in because you have such a fascinating background that I want to dig into but you said something there that I want to I want to build on, which is you had a five year plan, and not a lot of people really have that. I've been really impressed with your approach to looking at life, and you have your Passion Planner, right? So tell us a little bit about how you think about organizing. One of your big roles at Farmer D as a director of design and operations, you know, it's really understanding how to manage projects and plan for things, you've got a lot of stuff that you're coordinating. And you know, while you dig into the design, as well, but you have such a broad view, as an entrepreneur, you're always kind of keeping me looking at the long term plan of where we're going and keeping our compass kind of pointed in the right direction. So I'm just curious, tell us a little bit about how you approach kind of planning the tools you use in that.
Kasi:
Yeah, I mean, I think there's one aspect that's just the intuitive nature where it's just like you see something you see even like a small portion of a project, and then you can see what it can grow to. And what I've learned is in developing, you know, really strong systems, it really helps to grow, like kind of grounding things in systems helps to grow and helps to plan. I kind of just write out a lot of ideas, and the Passion Planner came to me by my sister five or six years ago, when it when it first was on Kickstarter. It's a nice guide. They kind of asked you to plan out, you know, three months, one year, three or five years, I think, and then lifetime, and you start to look at that monthly, you know, you kind of start at that large plan at the beginning of the year, you break this down every month, and then you you have like an assessment mid-year. And I think, in practicing that over the over the course of five or six years now with the Passion Planner, I've started to just use it as an approach in work. Like when we have our visioning sessions, it's like, okay, I feel like, there's so many opportunities, and you're such, you know, a visionary, that there needs to be a little bit of a grounding element in everything that we do. And a lot, a large part of that is just penciling out a plan. And pencil is like such the right word, because I feel like you get... you have to do, you know? You have to kind of like act and do in order to see what the other opportunities are that you're not seeing just yet. And to me, really framing out, you know, a roadmap, whether it's like quarterly, or every six months is helpful to get to those next bigger steps that maybe we don't quite see it.
Farmer D :
So I think what's so fascinating about that is there's so many layers to what you're talking about, right? So you're applying those kind of principles and practices and intuition, both in your own personal life, and in our business that we run, and also with our projects and helping them plan out, you know, their phasing plans and implementation plans. And so, there's a lot of planning going on, you know. I can't get away from using the Citizen Farmers' framework, I think it's now like, baked into my soul, you know, that, like, this garden cycle that I've been so tied to for 25 years now. And so, you know, just to kind of frame this a little bit, you know, we started out talking about kind of what, what your passion is, and kind of why you do what you do a little bit, and we'll go back to more of that, we always want to keep adding that compost, that's why we steward, that's how we steward our life and our work. We're talking now, you know, really about planning and vision and how we apply kind of these principles and practices in our lives, and in our work, and in the world. You know, you really like you know, some people like to stay in the visioning. I'm more, you know, I like to be in the vision, I love seeing things actually happen. Like one of my favorite things about my work is seen farms come to life, it's like art on a living Canvas, you know, with people and community. And I know you have a real passion for placemaking, for working with people, especially. Tell me a little bit about that, from your experience: what you've done, your actions that you take, some of the projects that you've been most inspired by, when it comes to really making things happen?
Kasi:
Yeah, I mean, I think there's an aspect of like, maybe impatience on my part. And that's why I just kind of I want to do. And a part of that is just the way that I learn in order to, you know, make the next project even better or just to improving myself. But with the placemaking projects, they're really fun because you you kind of constrain them to short timeframes. So, that stuff is a little bit forced to happen. And the approach is not working beyond you know, four or five months and taking them through this engaged process of community input all the way through implementation. And it's it's really fun because you're engaging with, you know, community based organizations and the people that live work and play in an in a space, in a neighborhood, and it community. And you start to see the skills that they could bring to the table, whether it's just, you know, the everyday knowledge that they have, or the way that people use that neighborhood, where the walking paths are that aren't quite known to everyone else, and where the hangout spots are, you know, the good shady spots in the place where you get get like a good waft of bread baking from down the street. And then there's, you know, the skill sets that people bring that are like technical, where they could build things and make things or, or cook for, you know, the volunteers when it comes to, you know, the final sort of culmination of it all being the building, the building weekend, or it's usually like a two to four day window that we then build what's been conceptualized. And in between that time, it's keeping everybody engaged through the process, which I love, because there's a transparent aspect of that, it's like, we're not just coming in asking you what you want to see, and like bringing up these big visions. But now we're, we're putting that into an actionable, achievable plan, like there's usually parameters set around, or constraints around budget, around, you know, what we can and cannot do within permitting, regulations or whatever. And so that's when, like, the creativity really comes into play, which, which I love, like, when you have a little less, you get more creative. So, you know, in that span of time, we keep the community engaged. And it's by way of just having little pop up opportunities, maybe little art-making workshops that goes to making a small component that is going to get implemented in the larger built project. And so like, when I think of one of our projects, Shalom and the tiles, maybe lighting the culvert, you know, that, to me, is a great opportunity to keep people engaged through a process where it's like, you can make a tiny tile, and at the end, you know, maybe there's a weekend where they start to get mortared in, and everyone has their hands in on it. Every time people come to a space where they've been actively engaged and participating, which I think is like the core definition of community --like actively participating and with other people in a place that you live work and play-- there's a real cool sense of ownership and they get excited, they pointed out to, you know, their friends or people visiting and, and it just creates that feeling that I think everybody wants when they're developing these communities. It's created for the people, you know, it's not created through a beautiful design, it's created through the process, and it's, you know, what we've talked so much about is how that process can really be leveraged to work with the people that are living, working, playing there that are a part of the environment and, and just have been a little bit more human with them, you know, instead of these, like consultants that have a skill set that come from outside and make something pretty, and then walk away.
Farmer D :
That's really beautiful.
Kasi:
That's really passion, that's really you know, what drives me in that.
Farmer D :
I love it, I can feel it. And it you know, it's it's the thing that I think got me most inspired by you early on when we used to hire you and Elisa to come and do nature play at Coastal Roots events, you know, and you set up all the materials for the kids to build teepees and flags and all that nature play. And I saw that passion in you and you know, the ability to like create that kind of vibe, that sense of connection, and fun-- I know how much making that fun is important to you-- and, you know, we talked about this quite a bit and Kasi and I've been exploring this within Farmer D as what we do. We've both had a lot of experiences, building kind of community in the sense of like, creating, you know, connecting people to the land to each other, you know, creating, using these, the development of these projects as opportunities to engage people in the actual process. The journey is, is the destination a little bit, right? And with design, you know, we're doing so much of the-- it's so important that the design makes sense, and it functions well, and it's beautiful and inspiring and safe and all those things. I kind of see that a little bit like it's the hardware, or like the the framework, the bones, the structure of something. What you're talking about, the activation of a place, the engagement with people, that's like the software...living kind of muscles and nerves and tissues that kind of run through a project that bring it to life. And that part to me is so exciting. I get equally as excited as you. You and I connect a lot on this and what we've seen over and over again and what we love about our work, I'd say is that, you know, One, it's about kind of creating the space, right and farms are such beautiful gardens and farms are such beautiful spaces that are inviting to all. Everybody can can relate and connect to food and to plants and to flowers and to animals. And it's a softening of the spirit, it's a place that makes people feel calm and welcome and connected. And then when that space is activated, and people have a sense of belonging, and, and collaboration and, and a sense of community, and a deeper sense of connecting to the actual work that happens in those spaces, it's magical, it's transformational, both for the individual and for the broader community. So yeah, that that's, that's so exciting.
Kasi:
I think it brings a sense of play too because it's just, it's amazing, like how in awe you can be of a flower or, you know, a hummingbird or just a garden in general, or, you know, a lot of people don't know how things are grown and to be like, "What? that's how that tomato is coming out of that flower?" So, yeah, I think that's really cool. And for the nature play, stuff, I wanted to, I always wanted to create a coffee table book of the structures, of like photos of the structures that came out because they came out so cool, but I never really never really did that. I had a good photographer come up and sort of take cool photos.
Farmer D :
Never too late. So you made me think of something, you know, when you talked about awe and the sense of awe, you know, it brings me to one of the projects that you and I first worked on together, which is the Modern Elder Academy. You know, when Chip Conley first asked me to come down, and take the course, he and Jeff who run the Modern Elder Academy in Baja California, in Mexico, they said, "Hey, before you come and help us design, our farm-based community, our agrihood. Come and just experience what we do at MBA, at the Modern Elder Academy. And I went down for the week and the teacher, the faculty, for my workshop was a very famous person in the world of awe. In fact, I believe, if you google "awe" he is the person that comes up the most. His name is Dacher Keltner. And Dacher runs the the School of Greater Good at Berkeley, and he's literally the world's leading expert on awe- A. W. E. Right? And he taught us at the Modern Elder Academy, about what actually happens, kind of from a science perspective, in our bodies, when we are exposed to something like a magnificent nature scape or an inspiring flower that's blooming, right, that sense of awe, and what it does to our whole, you know when I say body I mean our whole body. It's profound, and it's healing. And it's powerful, right? And so I want to talk a little bit about our work together Modern Elder Academy and ask, you know, that was such a fun project. There was a sense of mindfulness, right, Modern Elder Academy, so much about mindfulness and about these ideas of awe and curiosity. And, I'm curious, from your perspective, you worked really intimately on helping design the garden at the Modern Elder Academy --that we had the good fortune of being able to design and help build-- and of designing the agri hood, that is Baja Sage, the wisdom community extension of Modern Elder. And, you know, I was thinking about it this morning, actually, I was doing a little yoga this morning and thinking about how ...I was thinking back to Teddy, who teaches meditation and yoga at Modern Elder, and how powerful it is when we take the time to do that kind of inner work and kind of calm ourselves and allow ourselves the spaciousness to connect kind of on the inner level that our society doesn't that our rat race mentality doesn't exactly support and nurture that part of us here, I find in this country. So what do you do, Kasi? How do you find that kind of cultivating your own inner peace, your faith, your passion, your compassion? And maybe just through the lens of that work I mean, I know there were some things that came out of the work with them that we were like, Oh, we love working with them, because they're so mindful. And they're so you know, compassionate, and their intentions are so good, like, share with me a little bit of what your experience was like there and how that project maybe differs. And what resonated for you in that?
Kasi:
Yeah, I mean, I think the process that they led through gathering everybody's input, the design charettes was really interesting. They were very mindful of being in Mexico, you know, and not not being from the country that everyone has kind of from different areas. And so they wanted to make sure that they engaged everybody: people that visited, people that live there, the consultants that were working on the projects, neighbors, and I liked that. That, to me reminded me more of the, you know, the way that we would approach local San Diego placemaking projects: is that everybody's input is valuable, that that's the main thing. And the other thing that I think that we kind of took from them a little bit too, was the mindful minute, just really taking a moment to ground at the beginning of each session with just with a mindful minute. They walk you through a minute of meditation, you know, breathing, closing your eyes, relaxing your muscles and kind of walk you through, you know, your body and body check. And to me that was really powerful, because, you know, we all hold tension, like in our necks and our back being behind the computer, we're rushing to get to a meeting, you know, traffic was bad. And so it's just, it really gets you present and kind of makes you realize, like, why we're there. You know, it's not just a job, it's being part of something more, it's, it's being part of that community, and really engaging it more than just bringing your technical skill set, but seeing it a little bit deeper. So that's, that's the main thing. I thought they were just very thoughtful about, you know, making sure that everyone felt heard. And, and really engaging people and, and their project is really fun. You know, the agrihood down the road, Baja Sage. You know, it takes that approach to land where it's, it's really the landscape, you know, the planting that's going to happen around the houses. It's about, you know, 50% Farm 50% housing, and around the houses, you know, they wanted to have landscaping on the outside and in the courtyards and what I really loved because even though I practice landscape architecture, I really love a little bit more of the wild integrated approach, rather than just having like, you know, a pretty ornate landscape and so integrating both, like, the desert scape with the agriculture was really fun. It's not linear, there's not a pattern, it's kind of this like this artistic approach where you're playing with the sculpture of the plants, along with obviously, where the sun is and where the wind is, and, and the shade and all of that. But you're you're able to play with like this form and structure of the plant to make it a little bit more of a like, sculptural landscape, I guess.
Farmer D :
Yeah, and more integrated, right? I think one of the things we deal with a lot on these projects is that when we come in, you know, and design the farming and agricultural components, it's so important that the ethos, the stewardship principles, the landscape, and the farm, are connected, they're integrated, they're not these, like --there's nothing worse than showing up at a project that has a completely conventional landscape with chemicals and then they got an organic farm in the middle. There's just a disconnect, right? So it was so nice to see, you know, them being able to really integrate the landscape and the farm. So there's both a more seamless integration, but also a more consistent, you know, stewardship ethic across the whole project. So you've got this like really interesting background, Kasi, because you've got, you know, agriculture in your background, you've gotten natural building, you've got facilitation, you've got landscape architecture. What got you into all this stuff? Tell us a little bit, give me a little bit of like, the backstory of how you ended up getting into all these different things.
Kasi:
Yeah, natural building. So I did my undergrad in Environment and Resource Management and kind of wasn't sure what to do with that. I did fall in love with my solid waste class, or waste management class. Sorry, it's a waste management class in my undergrad. And I fell in love with that, because we toured this landfill in Austin, Texas called Creedmor. And they were really showcasing responsible waste management both in like, you know, how they had to deal with, you know, stuff that had to get buried essentially, and then how they really upcycled and recycled as much as they could and make a product out of it. And they had like a thrift store on site, that they fixed all this stuff that people don't want, or they repair things that people don't want, you know, they they use a lot of the recycled glass for landscaping, you know, mulching, composting, all of that. And they ended up having this pavilion and venue on site downwind from the landfill, you know, where the waste was getting buried and they were using, at the time, you know, this was 15 or 18 years ago, at the time very high tech technology that was really minimizing the amount of leach getting into the groundwater. And so they purposely put their event pavilion down wind, just to show like we're doing a really good job. And, and it was a beautiful space, I think they had a wild animal farm on there. So that was sort of, you know, kind of kicked me off into a soul searching and, and I won't make this too long. But, you know, through that I, I found natural building and I did an apprenticeship for about six weeks lived out of my tent in the mountains of Taos, New Mexico and learned how to build with straw bale, and clay, sand and straw, which is called cob. We built a straw bale sauna, we learned about permaculture, we learned about all of these materials that can be used, that have you know, higher levels of integrity, versus a lot of the, you know, more common building materials that we tend to use. It just takes a little bit longer time a little bit more labor intensive. But, and a lot of these materials can be found locally, or you know, nearby, you know, lowering your embodied energy. And so I was really inspired by that and and I built houses for about a year and a half, and really wanted to hone in my skills on that. And I learned through that process about permaculture, I did that sort of design certification. And then when I was building houses, one of the architects was talking about getting her Landscape Architecture degree. And I was like, well, what's that? I didn't even know what it was. So, um, you know, we had a few talks, and I was like, that sounds really cool. And so I started to look more into that. And at this time, I branched off and just after getting my permaculture design certification, I was like, I'm going to have a business. And so you know, me and my, my ex-husband built a couple businesses, one in Austin, where we were, you know, redesigning people's front yards, backyards, you know, food, gardens, whatever. And we were really staunch on utilizing locally sourced materials, you know, salvaging and upcycling materials and stuff like that. And it was really fun. And we did really well. And then we moved to Colorado, and I partnered with a farmer there, and we started to get into more edible landscaping. But the thing that we saw was that, you know, only certain people could pay for our services, because and, you know, at the time, we were charging very little, just just enough to, like, live and have a little savings. But it was still such a bummer, where we're like, you know, this shouldn't be inaccessible. And we started to investigate, you know, other ways that, you know, maybe we can make a living, but be able to, you know, offset costs, and share our knowledge and know-how with people around growing food and help them to grow food in their houses.
Kasi:
And you're talking about specifically, people who were not able to afford your services, people that were in lower income communities and that kind of thing. No, I mean, just anyone it could have, you know, oftentimes we came across like young families that just starting out that they really wanted to grow food with their children, but they were on a tight budget. We came across, you know, older people that maybe were retired. And this was Durango, Colorado. So it's, it's a little bit different there. But you know, older people that were retired that were on a little bit more restricted income. And so it to me, it was just like, hey, it could be anyone it could be... I thought about it as myself like, well, I probably wouldn't be able to hire myself out and you know, and help me to grow food. And so we started to investigate just more ways to make our services accessible.
Farmer D :
Yeah? And what did you find? What emerged from that?
Kasi:
Yeah, so we found SPIN farming, which is small plot intensive farming, and essentially, that's a methodology that was developed from some farmers in Canada, that started to get, you know... the land and water started to become really expensive for them to maintain their farming livelihoods, plus the cost of driving to the markets and you know, delivering their food, it was just all increasing costs. And so they, they came up with a concept where you could farm people's front yards, backyards, rooftops, side yards, whatever, and aggregate several households to create a farm --to create one acre, two acre 10 acre, however many and also depending on where you're living. In Durango, Colorado, the yards were rather large, you could have one house on a quarter acre, you know, so you can aggregate just a few, you know, a handful of those. So we started to go that route and my business partner continued to for a couple years after and then I ended up leaving at the beginning of that and going to San Diego to pursue Landscape Architecture because I saw that as a gateway to be being able to work with communities.
Farmer D :
Yeah, no, that's amazing. Yeah. It's funny, you and I had the same epiphany. I went to landscape architecture school for the same reason.
Kasi:
Yeah, yeah, I didn't really connect that before.
Farmer D :
So you went, you decided to go to school for Landscape Architecture at this point, I UCSD because you saw that as a way to have a bigger impact.
Kasi:
Yeah, way to have a bigger impact, you know, approach some of these issues around like food access on a different scale, through different ways. And so I went to study landscape architecture, and through that process, and in San Diego, I got involved with a lot of nonprofits, you know, focused on food insecurity, and also focus on watershed health, were kind of the the two main buckets which go hand in hand. And fell in love with it. I tried to, I did intern while I was in grad school at a firm, and I just thought I made the biggest mistake of my life. And that was the first year of grad school. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is not me. It's just it's not me and who I am and-
Farmer D :
Sitting in front of a computer working on AutoCAD.
Kasi:
Yeah, that and like, I didn't know any of the programs, like I had to learn them. And I was 28 at the time, you know, and in grad school, they don't teach you. So it was pretty daunting. And I kind of know where my, where my strengths are. And so I was just like, no, this is not how I go down. And so yeah, I kind of I went the route of just working with nonprofits and continuing to build my skill set, because one thing that I saw too, was that no firms are really doing what I really crave to do. And, and there's kind of an obvious point where it's like, it's not the biggest moneymaker, but at the same time, like they, there wasn't even a fraction. And so I really went down that route, did the whole facilitation, training and developed- that's where Elisa and I met, because we were the only two really pursuing projects, the way that we were pursuing them with the landscape architecture background. Now, it's become a little bit more popular. But, you know, this was 2010, 11, 12, somewhere around there. And, and yeah, it was a total niche, and awesome. And it's like, now I had this skill set that I could bring and use and help people and be of service and, you know, be a conduit to to help them to achieve their goals and what they desire to see in their communities.
Farmer D :
Yes, and I'm so grateful that you get to do that with me. I mean, it's been a fun ride, right? And we've been we've been working together for what a little over a year and a half?
Kasi:
Mhm, now, almost two years, D. It'll be almost two years in January
Farmer D :
Two years in January? Yeah COVID, kind of warped time. I miss working more in person with you. So, so along those lines, I mean, tell me a little bit about kind of where you see things heading, what are you excited about in our current kind of work? And where do you think we could have the biggest impact in the years to come?
Kasi:
Hmm, well, I'm excited about our recent conversations, mostly, you know, I see, I see the power of working with the projects that we have to, you know, help increase almost their awareness and how they can be a support to the communities that are in and around them. Not that we want to like change, you know, their vision or mission. But I think that we can help to inspire that. I'm also, you know, really interested to, since it's only been two years and design and planning does take a large portion of the front end part of it, I really want to get my hands dirty in a few projects and see them kind of through the next, you know, what happens after five years. And that sort of evaluation and assessment and just helping to build upon what can make them you know, stronger, better. And I kind of just see the connecting the dots, like the projects that are all over the nation. You know there's one in Tennessee and one in Washington and California... together, you know, collectively when we look at them they're making such huge impact, you know, collectively like where geographically they may be spread out, but collectively, they're really adding value and creating such a huge impact on a larger scale. So, I don't know, I guess I'm just more interested in this growth period right now and seeing us evolve into what the added services that we'll be bringing and how we can, you know, get engaged with some of these communities on a ground level, like, I definitely see that opportunity. And, you know, you had mentioned something along the lines where the designing is, is the big roadmap and it's really important and we don't really need to get input on the entire design, but it'll be fun to kind of section off little bits and pieces to bring people in to participate in, you know, the, the development of these corners or gardens or whatever, it may be a little placemaking projects within the within these. We haven't really talked about that, but I've kind of been been brainstorming it.
Farmer D :
I know, I mean, all of our projects really are pretty awesome. I'm curious, is there one that kind of speaks most to you along those lines that you would see kind of that activation and engagement and seeing something through and seeing the impact?
Kasi:
I mean, any of them really.
Farmer D :
I'm excited about all of them. But the one that keeps jumping out to me along these lines is Tradition. And I just, you know, being in Mississippi and being like a farm at the center of a VA hospital, a public health school, the National diabetes and obesity Research Institute, you know, our community nestled in the middle of the state with the worst obesity and diabetes rate in the country. It's like you could see where, like an impact in our partnerships with the universities and with with the VA and with the high school and the YMCA, like there's just so much synergy and possibility in that one. It's emblematic to me of what's possible when the farm becomes the kind of a centerpiece of you know, addressing a lot of these different issues and opportunities, right?
Kasi:
Yeah, Traditional would be great. And I think that one, with the university tie has that added fun element. And I think any of the masterplan communities that we're working in can be so fun to do, you know, a little bit of a placemaking component with them. It reminds me of the workshop that you gave out in Otay earlier this year with their gardening group and it was so fun just to meet with people there and you know, you kind of you gave this really cool presentation and then we did a little planting activity afterwards and you know, that was such a small scale but for me it connects-maybe this is selfish- but it connects me deeper to that project and like grounds me and the people that are there too and it inspires, you know, it's just like "oh, let's make this for you", you know?
Farmer D :
And it seems like, I mean that project, in Otay, is such an interesting- i mean it speaks to your, you know, originally from Mexico living in San Diego right on the border-has huge watershed component has like so many parts to it that feel like they speak to who you are, I mean, it's convenient that it's in your backyard, so to speak, in Chula Vista. Talk to me a little bit about your background like growing up in Mexico and what influenced maybe your parents and your cultures had on on your perspective and your philosophy.
Kasi:
Well, I grew up in El Paso, but we're on the border, which is really really fun. My family's from Mexico, they're from Guanajuato, down from Chihuahua. And it's interesting it's kind of like this ever evolving learning experience just kind of understanding where my family is from and how they've adapted. I think being Mexican-American almost becomes its own thing and I'm still kind of trying to wrap my head around it and why. But it's it's like a couple iterations of adapting to being in a different country but being of another culture you know? Sometimes you go back and if you go back to Mexico there's a nickname for you there when you're when they don't feel like you're Mexican enough. And so it's like this in between space but you know, border towns-- I feel like I need to research this but I think El Paso and San Diego are sister cities in some way shape or form. Like I think they both have the Chicano Park and there's sort of this like they're literal like Sister cities. I think border towns have this different sense of vibrancy because you're constantly in interaction with each other. El Paso is so cool because the I-10 runs east-west and essentially on one side you have El Paso and on the other side, you have Juaréz, Mexico. So you're in constant visual connection with each other. You can't just forget. So, and growing up, we cross the border all the time and had a ton of fun. So you know, we had that sort of intimate relationship with it. And I think the interesting thing with San Diego is that it is also, you know, so close Tijuana is right there. But it's kind of at the southern end, you know, it's kind of at the back door, you know, so to speak, and in the groups that I've--working with ULI, and in some of the community groups that I've worked with, there's this real big talk of how we make it more of like, the courtyard and the front door, and just a little bit of different interaction there. And I think that with the project down there in Otay it's such a great opportunity, because there's not really like this celebration of being connected to Tijuana, you know, and I think there's people see opportunities in how to develop and connect things in that way. But there's not really this celebration culturally, and both in food and in, you know, party or whatever, and agriculture. And that's what excites me about that project is its proximity, its way to kind of be this hub, this sort of like, bridge between the two. Kind of an ecological term is like at the edge is where the most diversity happens. And sometimes, at those edges, only certain things exists where they don't exist further outside that edge, you know, just just in nature. And in both of these cities, there's, there's this edge, and I think it's El Paso, we celebrate it really well, because of the visual connection. And in San Diego, there's such that opportunity to celebrate it more.
Farmer D :
I know, you just reminded me, one of my main mentors, Hugh Lovel, passed away this year. And I was on, you know, a big zoom Memorial kind of service for him, honoring him and one of the things that he you know, said often and came up was that "life grows at the edges". And he always taught me that. I mean it from the, from the small scale of like the edge of the grass clover pathway in the garden bed in the farm field to the bed right next to it, to like, the forest edge on the valley on the field, you know, the edges of the creeks, there's these really like, to your point, there's some very powerful forces at play that only happen on these edges. And it's at those edges, where there's a lot to harness and cultivate. And you know, what really resonates with me and what you're talking about, my limited exposure to Mexican culture through working in Baja...I just see, there's, I, you know, when you and I were down there, I don't if you remember, at Kasi, we went to went out for a drink in Baja, with some friends, there was a movie on Mexican culture that was playing in the bar. One of the things that really resonates with me, you know, I grew up, you know, with a South African kind of Jewish heritage, and both the Jewish kind of cultural coming together as a community, celebrating these kind of seasonal rituals tied to the land, you know, these different harvest festivals, like Sukkot and Passover, where my family would gather and eat these traditional foods, and there was an energy in a festivity. And also, sometimes there was a somberness and a humility, but there was a more sacred, elevation of the food and the meal and the ritual and the coming together as a family and a community that was, it was not normal, right? It was different, it was unique, and I connected to it, it had a big influence on me. And in South African culture, there's kind of a similar but different, like, little less spiritual, but more informal gathering around the Braai, the barbecue, and like food was just a central aspect of life in South Africa. It's been a part of--I'm staying with my parents right now and like every meal is just like, you know, celebration. And I think what happens in Mexican culture in the, you know, exposure I've had to working with, you know, people who have, for one, they have an incredible land ethic and work ethic around a connection to farming, and also an appreciation of a siesta, and rest, and a celebration around, you know, food and community. And there's a cultural difference. There's a cultural influence that comes across the border there that I think is very positive in the sense of, and very different, in that it is more familial, land-based food-based kind of celebration of culture and community that I've always found is a bit missing. It's something that I've been, I think yearning to see more of in our lives and in our communities and in our day to day lives. So it's something that I think we can bring, you know, I think one of the exciting things about our work is it through the farm in these communities, food is this like universal language, you know, the stewardship of land is something that we all share in common, no matter where we come from. And through using those as the foundation, the platform for building culture and community, right? Putting the culture back in agriculture is something that, and I think one of the things that we talked a little bit about around placemaking is also having that be true to where you are, it should be authentic to place. Right, it's not just a thing you kind of slapped down and franchise, it's something that you really dig into. Going all the way back to the Native Americans that were on that land and the indigenous culture and, and the, you know, the local melting pot cultures that are in a community and yeah, I mean, that's that, that intersection in your passion and orientation around that stuff, it just really feels very aligned, and exciting for us to cultivate that more in our work.
Kasi:
Agreed
Farmer D :
So, this was awesome. I so enjoyed having this conversation with you, Kasi, I know, we have a lot of work conversations. And it's rare for us just to kind of like, you know, chat about like philosophy and our backgrounds.
Kasi:
We used to do that on the airplane.
Farmer D :
I know, we used to do that on the airplane. It's true. Man, those all those moments, like gaps between you know, the the spontaneous bumping in at the office, the travel stuff, there's a lot of that relationship space that is hard to come by these days. So anything that you want to share that we didn't cover that has kind of that's come up for you in the conversation?
Kasi:
No, I mean, I feel like we covered it all. I think the way the last thing that you said was just why I'm home is just that desire for community. And, you know, some of that is missing a little bit in in my life. And I think in the projects that we work on, that's always at the forefront, and what we hear a lot from people, and even in the research that we've done on some of the business planning, it's, it's the driving force, you know, it's building that community. How does that get done? And that's why we're here.
Farmer D :
You know, you and I have some work ahead of us that aligns with this, this podcast, which is, you know, we've been talking about highlighting case studies of great projects that help inspire our work, our clients, our collaborators, our partners in what we do. You know, I think throughout this podcast, and for the years to come, you know, we're always looking at learning from others sharing other models, whether that's through the podcast, we'll be doing some blogging on it, some social media around it, we'll be doing some presentations. What are you most excited about with this new direction that we're going in with the podcast and highlighting, you know, people and projects that inspire us in our work?
Kasi:
I mean, I'm excited about breaking things down into case studies, I think from get go, you know, and just starting work with you, I've always wanted to dig deeper into the work that's been done and in the work that we're doing and pulling out those like big buckets of information that just can highlight the concise story, but also the metrics and all of that. So, yeah,
Farmer D :
The successes, the failures, the lessons learned.
Kasi:
The process, you know, it's all about the process.
Farmer D :
Awesome. Thanks, Kasi, so much for digging deeper with me on the first interview of season two of the Citizen Farmers podcast, lots more to come. Hey, have a beautiful time with your family. Bye bye