Designing Conservation Villages with Greg Ramsey

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

community, people, land, farm, villages, influences, health, years, connected, preserve, acres, France, growth, conservation, cluster

SPEAKERS

Greg Ramsey, Farmer D

Farmer D:

Awesome. So let's see today is December 23 2020. This is farmer D with the citizen farmers podcast. This is our third episode for season two. I'm super excited because today My guest is my longtime collaborator and dear friend, Greg Ramsey. Hey, Greg.

Greg:

Hey, D, how are you doing?

Farmer D:

I'm doing great. I'm in Chattanooga right now in the RV. Getting ready to head to Nashville with the family. We're still on our wild adventure, trying to find home, sneaking in some podcast sessions where I can.

Greg:

Wonderful.

Farmer D:

So I want to dive right in Greg, because, you know, I've been excited to take the time with you. For a long time. I've been wanting to kind of get your story and just talk philosophy with you. You know, I'll just start by saying you know, you and I first met about 25 years ago, when I was apprenticing with Hugh Lovell, who passed away this year, and in North Georgia mountains, and I just I remember the day pretty vividly, actually, you know, I was working on the farm and you rocked up with it was Jack Morse (?), which I didn't know at the time was one of my good buddies from high schools dad. And you guys were coming. What were you doing?

Greg:

Well, we had we had just finished planning and designing East Lake Commons, a 67 unit conservation community in Atlanta, Georgia. And we were looking for a farmer to manage the you know, what would become overall about a five acre farm at Eastlake Commons.

Farmer D:

It's funny, you know, who would have thought that here you were coming to look for Hugh Lovell to come help figure out the farm at East Lake Commons. And that here, you and I would be 25 years later, having worked together on dozens of these farm communities pretty crazy, huh?

Greg:

That's amazing. You know, the the reason that we came to visit Hugh was because my father, George Ramsey had been working on these conservation communities. ecovillages had been teaching them at Georgia Tech in the 70s. And he and Hugh became good friends because Hugh was innovating so much in the in the farm and health and soil health and all those fields so they'd become good friends. And that's how I knew you. That's why I was heading up there with jack Morris to see if he would be our farmer at East Lake Commons.

Farmer D:

You know, it's funny when I think back after you guys had the conversation, Hugh and I sat down for dinner that night. I was managing the farm with him. I was apprenticing with him helping manage this at family, biodynamic CSA farm where I learned more in that apprenticeship than I did anywhere. I mean, we were doing everything was insane. We were milking cows by hand making cheese yogurt, butter, milk and goats by hand making goat cheese yogurt butter. We were growing crazy amount of veggies. We were doing, we had chickens. We had pigs. We were raising rice. We had crawfish we were fermenting. We were pickling. We were saving seeds. We were baking. I mean it was like it was all on with Hugh Lovel man. And then every night, there were these like long biodynamic, philosophical conversations where I was just ingesting this, like deep wisdom from Hugh. And I remember that night he told me about the meeting. And he was excited. He was saying "How about if I go, you know, set this farm up in town in Atlanta, and D Why don't you run the farm here. And then we'll have the in town farm and the farm up in the Blue Ridge Mountains up here". And I was I was really excited. You know, my family was in Atlanta. So I was thinking, Man, this is pretty cool. I'd be only like, I don't think I was 19 like 18 or 19. It was 1995. So yeah, I remember that well. And it actually kind of started a whole conversation for Hugh and I about me taking over the farm and him going into town. And that's a whole nother story I'll save for another day. But I'm really curious, Greg, because you were heavily influenced by your dad. Tell me just a little bit about, you know, your upbringing. I know, you spent time in Oklahoma and France and just tell me what What was he like? What was he doing in his work that kind of inspired you? Because it seems like you've really followed in his footsteps, right?

Greg:

Yeah, he's definitely been, you know, been a real mentor. You know, I'd say there two or three people in my life that have really influenced it. Starting with my dad. You know, I've got to give a lot of kudos to my wife who's a geologist and hydrologist and environmentalist and so on. She's been a great inspiration over the years in this work. And of course, you know, you, D. We've been working, you know, for years, many years.

Farmer D:

Thanks. Thanks, Greg. That's really sweet.

Greg:

Yeah, you're welcome. So let me go back to, to my father. He was an architect and an architectural professor. And he spent 10 years in France, at first at the, what they call [French school], which is the School of Fine Art, one of the best architectural schools in the world. And this was back in the early 60s. after he graduated from there, he came back to the states and taught at several universities, the second of which was Georgia Tech. And he started setting up abroad programs for students to go and study in France, to study the villages, study the neighborhoods of Paris, and so on. And so he developed this overview of the way traditional agricultural communities, agro villages, agro towns functioned, and particularly pre 20th century pre car. Basically, he spent a lot of time in these villages that were compact, pedestrian, had all types of workplaces, integrated into them, had farms pushing up right to them with this exchange of farm goods, and produce flowing into the village into the markets, all the shops that focused on all the different value added products, you know, from bakeries, and pastry shops, to all the pickling all that stuff. And so, when the energy embargo came about in the 1970s, and he was a prof at Georgia Tech, he realized that those long lines of cars around the block are waiting to get their infusion of gas, and it was driving everybody crazy, and the economy was going upside down over it. And he realized there was another way, and that we could really solve this all those issues, which were not for him just energy issues, they were issues of people getting essentially spread out over the suburban world-- old people, young people separated, people not walking, people not connected to food, all those myriads of issues, he felt we could solve really by addressing zoning. And at the heart, what he meant there was if we simply made things focus on walkability, bikeability, and some transit, that we could cluster, we could bring the life back into the heart of villages and towns and cities, we could have food, again, flow from the edges and the farms and so on. So that was the vision he had, he spoke internationally spoke broadly to those issues. And about this solution, he was one of the first people to bring to really usher in the sustainability movement along with, you know, other key people like Ian [unsure?], and Schumacher and other folks that were, you know, focusing on all those issues, but he was one of the first. And ultimately, he got his classes, graduate classes, in architecture at Georgia Tech to focus on developing what he called ecological villages. And that's pretty much what I just described with the traditional agrarian village or town that you know, in Europe and other places, with the addition of appropriate technologies. So you know, those places and towns, as we did in our small towns in the US work really, really hard. And a lot of appropriate technologies had come in to ease that workload,

Farmer D:

What do you mean, when you say appropriate technologies? What are we talking about?

Greg:

Yeah, so, appropriate technology... It's interesting, because I recently read a quote by Albert Einstein, and I cannot remember the quote, but it was basically saying that when you keep developing lots and lots of technologies, and there's nothing to create a keel or, you know, a way to balance them, that they can be very destructive. And, and so perfect technology basically means using technology in a way that is supportive of the environment, you know, supportive of communities, and so on.

Farmer D:

Very relevant today, my goodness.

Greg:

Yeah they're very relevant today. So some examples are, you know, clearly solar, passive and active solar systems. When it comes to transportation, the most appropriate technologies are walking and bicycling because that's the lowest hanging fruit, and it's the most kind of holistic. In other words, when you get to your destination, you haven't just gotten there, but you actually got exercise you breathe fresh air, you interacted with your neighbors and the people of the place on the way. So these, it's like stacking multiple functions in one piece of technology. And it being appropriate in terms of supporting the environment, supporting the community, supporting the long term economic health of the place and system. So, that was the main difference between the original agrarian communities and these kind of agra-villages are ecological villages of today-- that they benefit from the appropriate technology, so don't have to work as hard. That was really one of his great things he loved to say was that we don't have to work so hard anymore, all we have to do is think simply and think, you know, just think clearly, he had a phrase that was, there's no use getting on a fast train going in the wrong direction. And that really kind of summed up I think, his vision of technology: just because you've got something that can do something that's absolutely amazing doesn't mean that you just do it. You think about the consequences, and whether it's, you know, how appropriate it is. So that was, you know, in a nutshell, he was also very focused, his background was a humble background, coming out of southeastern Oklahoma, you know, on a small farm. And, and so he made, you know, he kind of made his way from there to being this full professor at Georgia Tech, and then speaking all over the world, you know, not because, you know, he was just an absolutely amazing person, but because he just never stopped pursuing what he wanted to pursue. And and that eventually got him there via this 10 year foray in France.

Farmer D:

You know, it makes me want to ask you a question here, and just hearing that story, and I've heard about him over the years. I mean, he's clearly what a hero for our work. I mean, I can see how he was such an inspiration for you. What would you say were like, the core values that you carry with yourself and your work? Because you're so committed, but I think like, one of the biggest... were you and I butt heads most, I'd say is where, you know, you're so committed, sometimes to the extent that you can almost call it stubborn, you know, when it's like, hey, a developer's like, you're pushing me too far in that direction. Like, I'm not ready for that. And you just you're so you have so much persistence and commitment. And I'm just, I'm curious, it sounds like maybe that's where you got it from, but what what are like some of the core values that you carry with you from your dad?

Greg:

Well, I think the first one that I learned way back when when I was probably about 13, we, he wanted to return to Oklahoma. So he bought a large couple 100 acre piece of land there. And I spent all the summers of my youth up to probably about 19 in the foothills of the Ozarks in southeastern Oklahoma. And one of the things that happened to me that was a core experience was when I went there, in 1968, I think, or it was 69, it was the most magical place I had literally ever experienced. And I had done some traveling, but had never seen that much biodiversity in one place. It was like the, the whole place was alive. At night, you know, it's like, you needed to shut the door, the window from the outside just to be able to go to sleep, it was so many sounds and, so on. And so I spent the first year or two there fishing, hunting, doing, you know, kind of youthful things on the land. And, and then right about that time, suddenly, I went out one day, and there was a huge clear cut, you know, the whole, you know, this large, significant area had just essentially been graded, and was muddy, and so on. And it was my first introduction to clear cutting, you know, at a larger scale. And what ensued, and I won't linger on this, this was just a massive, clear cutting exercise of this whole region, you know, mountains, valleys across rivers, there was no legislation to facilitate that and, you know, help keep the rivers clear and so on. And in that exercise, we lost a large amount of the biodiversity there and, and it changed forever. And so that was kind of my ushering into my concern about the environment, which was a core value. And what I learned from there was that monocultures at a large scale are extremely destructive, you know, as our course all the wholesale applications of pesticides and herbicides and you know, that all that things should be done, if possible at a smaller scale. In a more integrated way, which we're seeing now with the a lot of integrated applications.

Farmer D:

Yeah. So tell me a little bit about your journey. So, you know, we've heard a lot about your dad's journey. And Wow, what an inspiration. You have influences from spending time on the farm in Oklahoma. Sounds like you had a lot of influence from your time in France. You know, what was your What was your journey like? How did you get to be where you are?

Greg:

You said one thing to that, and that it's a positive note, you know, he went on to spend a couple years helping pass legislation in Oklahoma, that help protect the way that silviculture was practiced. And so you know, I think one of the things I learned then was that, you know, we're gonna make mistakes, and we can change that we can change the patterns.

Farmer D:

So just to clarify that. So that's really interesting. So you saw this kind of clear cutting right there in your community in Oklahoma, where your dad bought the farm, and you were partially raised. And then you said your dad actually got involved and influenced policy around it?

Greg:

Oh, yeah.Yeah, he was, he was big. He was always in touch with with policymakers, and politician, and all of those. And yeah, he got some policies changer wasn't easy, but he did impact it.

Farmer D:

That's amazing. You know, I always go back to the citizen farmers philosophy and framework and I think about how, you know how well this story illustrates two of the core tenants, stewardship, and your dad's, you know, kind of vision around stewarding community in the environment. And, you know, thinking globally, but also very locally, and then also around like, taking initiative. Yeah, you know, so many of us, we see things happen, and we're like, oh, bummer. I hope somebody does something about that. That's too bad. Like, what a shame. But, you know, to grow up with a dad, who is actually getting involved, taking action, making things happen, and kind of addressing these, these issues that he confronts. To me, I mean, not from a citizen farmers perspective, I mean, I think that's what it's all about,

Greg:

Absolutely.

Farmer D:

You know, don't just sit idly by and watch injustice, whether that's to the environment or to people, you do something, right. I mean, that's what we do as citizens we have a lot of power to take action, and we can, you know, we can make a big difference, even with a small act. So that's, that's really inspiring. I can see where that value set of perseverance and initiative and stewardship, really where....you and I obviously get along really well, because we share a lot of the same values.

Greg:

Yep, absolutely. Well, let me go back to your, your previous question about kind of my journey. So. So I think the combination of growing up in France, I lived there, about nine years, and went to early school there, then went back again, back to school and finished at the University, at the same school, my dad went to [French school], in my early 20s. But I think the thing that I came away with, from both the French experience and the Oklahoma experience, Oklahoma was mostly about the environment and nature and our relationship to nature. And that was a very deep experience, France was a deep experience about people, and how they're connected to each other in community and how they're connected to each other with regard to the earth, or to the land. I think that the thing I really take away is just the incredible tapestry. When I was young, of people, and all of the things they did all the businesses, little entrepreneur, undertakings they did that connected everybody together, you know, so, you know, basically from the farm and the farmer coming in to all of the different products that were created. And this is so typical of France, there are maps that show the culinary influences of each little region all across France, and that's kind of what was going on in the, in the early 60s when I first went there. You know, you could go 100 miles and find new different materials, you know, coming from that slightly different region, culinary dishes, and so on and so on.

Farmer D:

know, the terroir, right terroir?

Greg:

Yeah. and so, I think what came away there was that, for me in a balanced society, there are many, many small businesses, and they're all connected to community, or, you know, mostly connected to community and the culture of community. And what we've done is moved more and more into increasingly larger businesses that are farther and farther away from the community that cause people to drive longer distances. We've done the same thing with workplaces. And so we've kind of stretched the company out until the fabric is pulled so far that a lot of potential community interaction and culture has gone and missing.

Farmer D:

That's really powerful, Greg, and, you know, it's so interesting when, as you're sharing this, like, the irony is not lost on me that we met through Hugh Lovel. I mean, I think what is so powerful, and he's been so present in my thoughts recently, as he just passed, is that he was this mad scientist and artists, right, like the maker of all makers, the grower and maker of so much, and I think, for me getting exposed to that at a young age, you know, I was 18 or 19 years old, to see such abundance, with just the simple act of planting seeds and harvesting things and making things out of it. And I think, you know, we I really resonate, and this is another one of the citizen farmers virtues around entrepreneurship and perseverance, right? It's like, this idea that like, to create enterprise to create value from the land, I read a quote, once money is a fluid version of the earth, and it really stuck with me. And, you know, I'm a serial entrepreneur, you know that. And I've always seen this, and I resonate so deeply with what you said, and especially today's literally like today's world, where so many people are out of jobs. Yeah. And we've got this disconnection to our food system and our food. As a result, we have a lot of unhealthy people, and we have a very unhealthy planet, I think this idea of revitalizing culture and community by creating jobs that are connecting people back to the land, and to the abundance that can come from the land, and be crafted into these incredibly nourishing products. It's the journey, not the destination in that gets me so excited, just like meaningful work, rich connection to the land, connection to community, local circular economies, you know, simpler lives, you know, appropriate technology, like, these are the things that that, you know, when I raise my kids, and hearing the way you grew up, and the influences you had, this is what what I want my children, you know, we're constantly battling the screen, you know, it's like, yeah, force of the iPad, and the iPhone and those movies. And it's so it's so prolific in our society right now. And what, what our kids need, and what we need is a more intimate, grounding relationship to the earth, and to each other. And we need to create these more vibrant, local, resilient, entrepreneurial communities that, you know, have barter economies. And, you know, I think I think that's what just, I'm just hearing what you're saying, I'm just like, resonating so deeply with it, because it is intersection of business, of community of stewardship. Right.

Greg:

That's it, I mean, it reminds me of...basically, the sustainable stool, the three legged stool, it's that balance, we need those three legs that are community, economy and environment. Every action we take, you know, we don't have to sit there and think about it each time, but they should balance those things. There should be something for community, something for the environment and something for, you know, the cash flow, whatever representation that's gonna be.

Farmer D:

So let me build on that idea and ask you another question, which is like, how do you describe what you do? Because I know what we do, right? Because I know so much of what we do is that that is exactly what you just explained. I think you've spent a good bit of time now discover a little bit more like why you do it. But tell us a bit more what, what you do. Yeah.

Greg:

So, you know, the we call our product, conservation community. And that's, that's a term that's been used for quite some time. You know, key players in the field are people like Randall Arendt, who wrote this first book "Rural by Design". And it was all with this notion that we need to reverse the experiment we've been having since probably primarily World War Two, which has been to spread everything out. And so now what we have to learn is how to bring things back together in a more compact way. So that's the essence of conservation community. Its its first task is to to conserve land. And when I say land, I mean farmland, I mean, wood woodlands, I mean, meadows, you know, those are the basic types. We do that by basically taking what otherwise might have been zoned in a suburban way for a scattered kind of large lot development. And instead, we, you know, we make a village or we make a Hamlet. You know, those of you that that are familiar with Steve Nygren and Serenbe, you know, understand what I'm talking about there.

Farmer D:

He's actually my next interview next week. So we'll dig deep into that with Steve. Yeah. He's the founder of Serenbe community where Greg and I also reconnected when I was starting the farm there, and you were working on some of the planning. So we'll dig into that soon. So yeah, keep going.

Greg:

But that's the basic toolkit is by creating a walkable, density, clustered village or Hamlet, I free up the rest of the land. So instead of spreading houses over, let's just say we had 100 acres, instead of spreading them out over 100 acres. Instead, I'm putting them on, let's say 20, or 30 acres. And we use a basic metric for that. And that metric is, if we're in an in town area, typical in town neighborhood, and there's, let's say, a large infill parcel left of land, we can build the same number of homes and preserve 50 to 60% of that of the buildable area of that land. If we're in a suburban area, we can do the same thing, but because the lats are bigger, we can preserve 60 to 80%. And if we're in a rural area, with a lots being even larger, 5, 10, 20 acre lots, we can preserve 80 to 90% of the land.

Farmer D:

So let me ask you a follow up on that real quick. So, I mean, to me, it's a little bit obvious, but maybe it's helpful just to further contextualize, why is it important to conserve the land?

Greg:

Well, you know, there's, there's several things there. First, if you just think about biodiversity, you know, the wildlife, they, they all have their systems, and ecological systems to live in -their homes- and we are constantly pushing them out, you know, that's why you hear that there are, you know, bears breaking into people's back doors or whatever. We're constantly upsetting those natural habitats. So that's number one, is so that we can preserve more of the natural habitats, and, and actually connect them because when we do one of these, let's say we've just preserved 80% of a semi rural piece of land, we're now going to try to connect the adjacent lands in a way that that green space, open space flows and connects because they need a lot of space. So that's one one reason. Certainly our streams, you know, we're in the cities, we're having huge issues with stormwater and the impacts of stormwater. So the more open land you can leave, the more you can allow the streams to do what they naturally would do, which actually enhances the natural habitats as well. And then yet, a third piece is food resiliency, or farms and gardens. When we can preserve an acre of land for, let's say, in a two acre community, that would be half that land, then we can actually begin in an intown situation to, to grow almost enough produce for all those folks to, to consume, and at the same time, create a lot of community and programs and education around that. So basically, you know, water, natural habitats, and farms and gardens and food resiliency, those are three really, really good reasons. We started talking about climate for a second, because clearly, the more we can do to renew soil health, and maintain our forests, the more we're going to do to help sync carbon and address that whole issue.

Farmer D:

Yeah, and what's beautiful about this is, you know, so many things that you just explained as the benefits and the reasons why we should conserve land are more, you know, in service of our, our responsibility as stewards of the earth. But as one of the benefits of that kind of the side benefits is that the people who live there, get to enjoy nature trails, clean water, wildlife, food, you know, to be able to live in a community that's walkable and has access to both nature, agriculture, and a village. I mean, I'm looking for a home right now, right? We're kind of looking to settle down, I was just having this conversation this morning with a realtor when I was explaining what I'm looking for. And I'm like, we design these things for a living, right? We designed what you're explaining, that's what we do, right? That's what we've dedicated, you know, our life's work to is helping to reimagine the way we live and create communities that are more balanced and connected and, and climate friendly, right, more sustainable. And at the end of the day, it's a way better quality of life for the families and the people who live in those communities because they have all the back they have the balance within reach in their everyday life. And I think that's another huge benefit right of conserving land.

Greg:

That's definitely huge. I mean, health and wellness. I mean, you could say is probably the most important thing because when we lose our health, whether it's mental health from not having connection to relationship ships that we need, you know, with the land and with the community. And when we lose our health, because we haven't been, you know, active enough getting out in nature and walking and so on, then we've, you know, pretty much lost everything. So we could say that health and wellness is absolutely critical.

Farmer D:

And I think we really seen that, you know, with COVID, how important being active having access to healthy foods, social connections that we've been deprived of, you know, how critical they are.

Greg:

Yep. There is another level and I would call it spiritual. There is, you know, a peace that comes over people when they actually have close by access to nature. And that peace, you know, allows them then to connect with the the important things and spiritual things in their life. So, so I think spiritual is right there. Let me let me add another piece in this cause in this conservation community piece, the thing that's important to understand is, we can apply these at a large scale or at a smaller scale. So but for instance, in the Chattahoochee hills again, that Steven Nygren was the the initial kind of initiator of this concept was applied to 60,000 acres of land in Fulton County, you know, south of Atlanta.

Farmer D:

Yeah, I remember, I was the chair of the ag Committee for the Chad hills when you were doing a lot of the master planning. Yeah, almost almost 20 years ago,

Greg:

We've carried the same concepts to the Dominican Republic and to the Turks and Caicos Islands, you know, several places in the Caribbean, that have unbridled growth. There's so many reasons why people, you know, that have a lot of resources come into beautiful places, and can very quickly abuse, key scenic, and, you know, key wonderful land assets, and make them go away. Yeah, that's basically if we don't plan and look at larger areas, regional areas, in the long term, and figure out the best areas to preserve and create this greenspace connectivity and all of that, and then come back and identify our clusters of growth that are walkable, kids can walk to school, they're intergenerational, they're not as car dependent, and so on, if we don't go through that exercise, then what we wind up doing is simply just kind of, it's almost like we're just throwing stuff out into the landscape, whatever economic opportunity avails itself, we just jump on it. And it just we can kind of follow each opportunity until there's nothing, nothing left.

Farmer D:

You and I talk about this a lot when we talk about kind of where we want to go with our work, and I think another way of maybe saying the same thing, and how I've been thinking about this is most of our work is developer driven, right? Developers that are like, hey, I want to do an agri hood, I love this concept, I think it will sell and I think people will like it, and I'm excited about bridging agriculture and community, right agriculture instead of golf. An amenity kind of approach. And, you know, and occasionally we get, we get developers and more often landowners who have a land ethic, and they're coming in more from the perspective of "I've been on this farm for generations, you know, there's a, I want to be able to realize some of the value and develop it, but I want to preserve the farming heritage. And I want to keep the beautiful creek that I grew up in...", you know, and so we love those projects. And then there's the regional planning, where we work with cities and counties, where they're thinking at this bigger scale, where they're saying, "look, we've got this, we want to preserve the rural character of our community, we want to you know, make sure we take care of our, our climate objectives, and you know, our climate action plans, we want to be addressing health and wellness...", they're thinking through a much bigger lens. And I think when we have the opportunity in these projects that we've been doing over the years, to work at that scale, and think about green belts, and farm belts, and hamlets, and where does development makes sense, you know, looking at prime farmland and looking at the streams and the and the ecology and, and looking at existing infrastructure, you're able to take a much, you know, 30,000 foot view and start to set a course for generation, rather than kind of how society typically works, right, which is just like, "Where's my quick fix? What can I do now? How do I make money?" I think if we had, if culturally, and societally, we had a little bit more of that mentality and invested in our communities at that level, I think we would see-- one, we'd see a lot better growth pattern, we'd see much better conservation of nature and wildlife corridors and habitat, we see much more integrated reserved agricultural lands, and we just have, we'd have better places to live, work and play. Right?

Greg:

Let me follow up with just a couple other little principles to add, to reinforce the image that you're painting there. A lot of people spend a lot of their time working hard, not making barely making it. And they have to transport enormous distances. And so they have limited relationship to their community, to their kids, and so on. And so affordable housing is one of the critical pieces that need to be reintegrated into this so that people can have the time for community. And the thing I like to say there is what we really need is not just to focus on affordable housing, but to focus on mixed income. There's nothing wrong, we've had, you know, since time immemorial, we've had people with more money and less money living not far from each other. And they're actually complementary relationships. So we need to really work on making space for people that do the good work and don't make much money and, you know, integrate them with others in this mixed income community. So that's one thing. Second thing is, we absolutely need growth. You know, there are people that take positions that basically need a moratorium on growth. Well, that works great for people that have plenty of resources, and you know, money and so on. But most people need stuff to do, we need growth. So the important thing is simply to grow in the right way, no one is saying, stop growing. But simply take the time to look at the environment and the social fabric and figure out the growth plan that you need to support and reinforce those. That's kind of second thing. Resiliency is so important to conservation. Of course, food resiliency, which we've talked about, and energy, you know. Solar is at an all time low now. There's no reason that these ecological villages are not all solar energy, self sufficient, netzero villages. And one of the last things that I would say is that, when you think about where, you know, we know that we have a tool to protect large areas or small areas, either infill or regional areas. The two areas I would focus on are, wherever we have significant sites that have not been developed that lie within a city or large town. Those should be really treated with kids gloves, and preserve to the extent possible. Some people try to make a case for, you know, don't ever develop outside of the city, put all your development in the city and I make the case for we need more greenspace connected greenspace within walking distance to neighborhoods. So in almost every neighborhood, we need to be clustering more and finding these infill sites and protecting them. And the other place is we have myriads of small American towns that economically are really hurting. Some of them haven't sprawled much outside of, of their Township, and they have literally not far from the historic core of the town have large farm properties that have not been developed yet. Those are opportune places to come in and purchase those properties and protect as the fringe kind of rural fringe of that town, protect them. And, you know, by using this village and hamlet cluster, literally you can bike and walk from it into the historic town, and you can bring all kinds of economic value in that process to the town.

Farmer D:

I love it. I mean, I think some of the projects that you and I've worked on in these small rural communities like Branchville, South Carolina, you know, there's such an amazing opportunity to help revitalize these depressed rural communities that have this historic backdrop, they have this infrastructure, they're often surrounded by good farmland, and not too far from major cities. And I think, you know, there's so many challenges in those communities: poverty, health, you know, obesity issues, diabetes issues, drug use issues, affordable housing issues. And then there's more and more people now that are working virtually, that can live in those that want to live in those kinds of communities. But we've let them we've let them go as a society.

Greg:

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Let me let me give you a real quick example of...we just are completing some of the planning for a small community. I won't mention it right now. But it was about a five and a half acre parcel in a low income community next to a great school and next to a Boys and Girls Club. And so what we did, it was zoned for, you know, suburban residential, it would have covered the entire site, except for a 75 foot stream buffer. We clustered all the units on about an acre and a half, and we preserve four acres of that, that development will have the same value as had this been developed in the suburban zoning. And now what we're doing is we're subdividing off the cluster that's going to be developed and gifting approximately, you know, three and a half or so acres to the community to start a community land trust, with educational programs, and so on, that will connect to the Boys and Girls Club, to the grade school, etc. So, at the core of this neighborhood, instead of destroying the last, you know, one of the last forest cores there, we have opened it up and amplified the social construct with this community land trust that, you know, connected communities.

Farmer D:

Love it.

Greg:

So that that's a real example of how this tool can can restore both the woodlands and environment and help heal the community.

Farmer D:

And what I love so much about that example, and coming right off of the Chattahoochee Hill countries is, like you said earlier, it can be 60,000 acres, it can be six acres, right. And the principles are the same. The impacts in some ways are very similar. And so there's no project too small or too big to apply these principles. And the other thing that you said that I think it's really important that we you know, we'll have time to dig, you know, we'll do a few of these interviews, Greg over time. And, and I know, I want to get into your book a little bit too. But in my work with you over the 20 years or so that we've been working together, I really love one of the things I love the most about what we do is, you know, you mentioned this relationship to the Boys and Girls Club and the school. And I think, you know, understanding the context, the relationships, the connectivity with the community, both physical and social, is so critical. You know, when we come into any new project, you know, we're looking at the deep cultural history, looking at the environmental, all the different aspects of it from an environmental perspective. We're looking at the what is the community character today? What are the resources and opportunities to build bridges, metaphoric bridges, between these farm based conservation communities and their surroundings, so that they're not insular. But they're integrated. And I think that that's so important.

Greg:

Let me just mention one last thing on that example I just gave, we protect the green space conservation easement, so that literally in 100 years, there will be kids standing under those oaks, and next to that stream, thoroughly enjoying that.

Farmer D:

Yeah, love it. Yeah, that's important. You know, we could get we could go on for hours, right? I mean, you just touched on a huge topic there as far as land ownership, conservation, for for natural areas for agriculture, you know, how projects are structured in that way, so important. And I think, you know, we could talk at length, we can maybe we do a whole session just on that, I want to wrap up with two I've two things I'm kind of burning to ask you to bring it to a close. One is kind of personal, and the other is more professional. So you know, you mentioned earlier on how health and wellness is such a huge piece of this kind of overarching themes and influences in what we do. Tell me just a little bit about your personal connection to health and wellness because I know you've had a, an interesting journey around being exposed to some really healthy diets and living foods and just briefly share a little bit of what your personal experience with health has been.

Greg:

So I think one of the one of the ways I was introduced to it was my mother used to have when she was younger, bad asthma. And I remember as a young teenager, she was growing wheat grass, for instance, on our washer and dryer. But she basically shifted her diet to bring in highly nutritious foods, you know, really focused on on, you know, fruits and vegetables and so on at the time, and was a huge influence on me. I kind of entered that whole space really went fairly deeply into it. I started off as a raw food vegan, which was good for the time. But the reason I did this was when I was coming out of high school really turned 20 right along there, I really had a-- wasn't feeling well, for some time. Up to that point, you know, life just seemed rosy and suddenly I was not feeling well and life wasn't so rosy. And so I started doing some research, remembered back what my mother had done and instead decided to shift my diet drastically. And I started with this raw food vegan. Did that for a year and a half or so. And then I tried macrobiotics and anyway basically allowed myself to experiment and what I figured out, you know, it took many years for me to find a balanced diet, which works you know, works well for me now. But when I figured I was, you know, our health and well being is critically tied to, to what we eat. And eating well really helps us think more clearly. And, and stay healthy.

Farmer D:

I love it. It's so funny because I have to share just, we've done so many trips together over the years, right? I mean, I can't, I've lost track we've done, you know, dozens and dozens of site visits all over the country. I just have to laugh, you know, going to restaurants, and you're always the guy that's like, give me the salad with a piece of fish. And it's always... you're like a big lovable squirrel. You know, it's like, you've got your bag and nuts, right? You got your your fruit, got your salads, and you're you've really, I mean, it's, and then every morning, you know, by the time I'm waking up, you've run a mile, and you've already got all the maps, and you're designing the this like, you know, epic community. And I just think it's really, I wanted to just highlight it, because I think it's really important.

Greg:

We have a tremendous responsibility to get that out there. Because like you said, there's so much disease out there. And, you know, so many refined foods that people eat that that, you know, might work fine when they're in their 20s and 30s, and even 40s. But as they get older, it all takes its toll.

Farmer D:

Well, I mean, this hit home for me in a huge way this week, right? I mean, my father had a health issue this week, that scared the bejesus out of us, you know, and he's pretty healthy. I mean, he eats all grass fed meat, and he bakes his own bread and pretty good on the veggies. But, you know, I grew up in a culture where in South Africa, my family eats a lot of meat. You know, it was always just part of the culture. It's where he grew up. And we always, you know, kind of get these patterns right from our families. Luckily, yours had some wheat grass on the dryer. But, you know, a lot of us had a lot of steak on the grill. You know, this was a big wake up call for my dad, but it was also a big wake up call for me. Now, thankfully, like you, my mom was a health nut. She taught fitness classes, she she had all the healthy cooking books. It wasn't until I got into organic farming, that she started to make the connection between kind of health and organics. And they've been organic for 20 something years now.

Greg:

You mentioned family, and that's--my wife who I dated in high school, I re-met through, "Eat Your Vegetables", yeah, that's says it all. Where she was waitressing back, you know, way back in the day. And my daughter, also, you know, is just an inspiration. She, she's a big yoga focused person.

Farmer D:

Nice. Yeah, it's huge. It's funny when I knew that my wife was gonna be my wife was when she made me a collared burrito. And I'd never met anyone else who made collard burritos. You know? When you take the color green and you use that as the as the tortilla. I thought oh, this is this is on now. So let me let me ask you a final question. Okay, just to kind of synthesize, this has been so fun. And we could, you know, we could talk for hours, Greg. But you've been working on a book, you and I've been talking for years now about collaborating on the book. And I guess what I want to ask you is you have so much knowledge clearly so much passion. It's such an honor, really, to work alongside you. And I've been just so grateful for your mentorship and friendship and just the professional collaboration that we've had, and continue to have. I mean, it's just gets richer every day.

Greg:

I appreciate that very much, D.

Farmer D:

Oh, you know, it's fantastic. And I'm just I'm like, What do you hope with your book, and what would your ideal legacy be, you know, in honor of your dad? What do you hope to accomplish with the book and kind of this next big chapter of your, your professional life?

Greg:

Well, you know, my hope would be that this book, you know, which is about village conservation communities, would not only, you know, influence education, you know, at the university level and below, you know, so that we can start shifting the culture, but that also, it also would help us look at regional, kind of, and policy decisions that we make every day, either good or bad. I think, you know, at its core, we have to decide if we are a culture of growth for growth's sake. In other words, growth just for economic opportunity, or if we are a society that wants, you know, growth, that's based on the best vision for the environment, the community, and the economy all together. And so that's, that's really, you know, the heart of it. So influencing those different spheres is, is really the probably, I think one of the most important things. Then of course, you know, it'd be great next 10 or 20 years to do a number of projects as we continue to do. I'd love us to take on some regional stuff if that you know, where that is possible-- is an opportunity. But I think those are the those are the main things. And I'm looking forward to us joining together to help get this book out.

Farmer D:

Yeah, me too, it's so important to get generational wisdom that you carry. And, and it's so needed in this time. And I said, it's just such a pleasure teaming up with you over all these decades now and super excited about the next couple decades to come. Because I feel like we finally got our groove on in the world kind of caught up to us a little bit, and it's time to really turn it up a notch. Because if we're gonna, you know, as your dad said, get get off the fast train in reverse and get on the slow train in the right direction, you know, that we need to get, we need to get policy, we need to get planners, we need to get government, we need to get developers, we need to get landowners, you know, all kind of educated and give them access to the full toolkit, and resources to be able to realize, you know, more vibrant, ecological, agricultural residential opportunities for people and for the planet.

Greg:

Health is going to be our ally. Everybody that walks the face of this earth wants to be healthy, you know, at least health as far as enjoy their lives. Yeah, we all have different definitions of that, but, but the earth is closing in, you know, we have over the last 50 or 60 years, we have lost over 50% of the wildlife and wildlife habitats in the world.

Farmer D:

It's devastating, I know.

Greg:

It's staggering, if you think of that, if you just look at that curve and look at the climate. We are now down to, you know, remnant natural areas that are pockets, and as fast as we can go just kind of connecting these industrial complexes. So we really need to think strongly about how we're going to shift the culture altogether, you know, both nationally and internationally, so that we become health focused, and start thinking in terms of multiple generations, right? For this, this wonderful sphere that we exist on to, to continue in all its richness.

Farmer D:

Oh, it's beautiful. What a great way to finish. Greg, it's been such a treat. This was a third episode of the citizen farmers podcast, you know, we started by, you know, I thought it would just be be appropriate to start this season and start this new kind of chapter with my closest allies and collaborators, my partners and change. You know, we had Kasi last week, Greg, this week, and you know, lots more to come and really appreciate you Greg. I'll talk to you in a few minutes and we'll you know, get to work. This was fun to take a little moment to reflect and learn more about your history and your journey. It's always great to deepen our relationship and and further the the work that we do. So thanks so much. Have a wonderful holiday.

Greg:

Thank you for everything you've been working on. For so long. You've brought so much value out so I look forward to to working for together for a number of years.

Farmer D:

Yeah let's have 2021 be a healthy and community oriented, moving us in the right direction year, wishing you happy new year. Greg, talk to you soon.

Greg:

Absolutely Happy New Year to you.

Farmer D:

Take care.